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Confused re: Control of Nonconforming ProductJohn R. Broomfield3-09-04  7:10 am
Confused re: Control of Nonconforming ProductJohn R. Broomfield3-08-04  10:47 pm
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Connie Ling
Junior Member
Username: connie

Post Number: 5
Registered: 2-2004

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Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 5:50 am:   

Is it compulsory to include a process map in the QM, showing the various interaction of business processes ?

For ISO/TS 16949, I noticed that process-based audit is modelled after the 'Turtle-and-Octopus' approach. Is it similar to the methodology expected by ISO 9001 Internal Auditors ?
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Christopher Paris
Intermediate Member
Username: oxebridge

Post Number: 19
Registered: 4-2003

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Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 10:25 am:   

Unfortunately, one of the few mandates on contents of a Quality Manual IS a description of the process sequence and interaction; in fact, the standard does not even allow you to REFERENCE this in another document (something I'm fairly certain was an oversight in the standard.)

However, this doesn't necessarily mean you have to have a process MAP. But that *is* the way people usually go with it.

I want to strongly recommend against turtle diagrams. These are quickly becoming a real problem in quality systems. They are confusing, uneffective and poorly understood. Frankly, the "turtle/octopus" model is a disaster.

I recommend using your own methods, a simple flowchart perhaps. At the risk of being accused of spamming, I will point you to a lengthy article that has a free download on my company's site. The content is too lengthy to post here in its entirety.

http://www.oxebridge.com/news.asp?ID=156

That will take you right to the article, and not to any sales pitches.

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John R. Broomfield
Senior Member
Username: jbroomfield

Post Number: 140
Registered: 2-2001

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Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 5:23 pm:   

Do not document your Quality Manual for the auditors.

Write it in the present tense for the employess. You could describe the sequence of key processes in the core process (based on your analysis of how your organization converts needs into cash) and how they interact with the processes that support the core.

A flowchart if very useful for depicting the core process and you could use narrative to describe how the support processes sustain, direct and improve the core.

This is the approach our clients have taken since 1986. Please say if you would like an example.
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Franco Zamuner
New member
Username: franco

Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2003

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Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 7:13 am:   

Could you be so kind as to send an example copy to me ? TIA Franco

fzamuner_despammed@stock-spa.it
Please remove the"_despammed" from the address
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John R. Broomfield
Senior Member
Username: jbroomfield

Post Number: 143
Registered: 2-2001

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Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 6:08 pm:   

Franco,

An example is on its way to you complete with a paper on developing your system to speed up the conversion of needs into cash.

John
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Robin Law
Intermediate Member
Username: tzejiang

Post Number: 14
Registered: 8-2003

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Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 4:32 am:   

Chris,

Why did you say that the Turtle-and-Octopus Method is a disaster ? The French will be very annoyed if they read your comment.
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Manoj Mathur
New member
Username: manoj_mathur

Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2004

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Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 8:35 pm:   

I wanted to attach my process map or process intearction chart for illustration. Any taker?
We are an ISO 9001:2000, ISO 14001 and ISO/TS 16949:2002 company.

manojmathur@adityabirla.com
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Adina Goltsman
New member
Username: agoltsman

Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2004

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Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 9:45 am:   

John,
Would you please send an example of process flowchart to me.
agoltsman@ajlmfg.com
Thanks,
Adina
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Chris Seemann
New member
Username: cseemann

Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2004

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Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 10:41 am:   

John,
Can you please e-mail an example of a process flowchart to me? I'm just getting started on the conversion from 1994 to 2000 and having difficulty determining how detailed the process flow should be. Any help or examples you could give me would be appreciated. Thanks!!
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Christopher Paris
Senior Member
Username: oxebridge

Post Number: 60
Registered: 4-2003

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Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 11:18 am:   

Chris, see my samples here:

http://www.oxebridge.com/news.asp?ID=157

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Chris Seemann
New member
Username: cseemann

Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2004

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Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 1:21 pm:   

Christopher,
Thank you so much. What an awesome guide you have put together. This answers a lot of my questions. Thanks again!
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John R. Broomfield
Senior Member
Username: jbroomfield

Post Number: 183
Registered: 2-2001

Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!)

Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 8:57 pm:   

Chris,

If you let me have your email address I will provide you with examples of how others have analyzed the systems they use to run their businesses.

From this analysis you can easily identify your key processes and their sequence and interaction. Each of the key processes is then subject to deeper analysis to capture the essential inputs, value adding steps, controls and outputs. The result is an integrated set of deployment flowcharts showing who does what or how functions work together to serve each of the system's key process so the core process adds value quicker.

The examples are provided to help explain how you can analyze your system and each of its key processes using deployment flowcharts.

This people>processes>system approach is explained on our website as well but we are not permitted to advertise here.

I look forward to receiving your email address (perhaps with the trick to prevent more spam as used by Franco above).

John
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Chris Seemann
Junior Member
Username: cseemann

Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2004

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Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 7:31 am:   

John,
As I said before, any help would be appreciated. We are a QS 9000 TE registered company (under 9000 - 1994) and plan to be certified to ISO 9000 - 2000 by the end of this year. Here is my e-mail address:
seemanc@automaticfeed.com

Thanks again!
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Christopher Paris
Senior Member
Username: oxebridge

Post Number: 62
Registered: 4-2003

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Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 8:41 am:   

cparis AT oxebridge DOT com.

John, you can certainly provide us a link to your website in the text of your posts. My take is that unless it's just gross advertising, on-topic links to third party sites (whether they are yours or someone else's) is still within net etiquette. I *like* to think that my reprinting of [insert my company name here] articles here isn't bad form, especially since I edit out any marketing-specific language.

Heck, this whole site is one big commercial for Lucid when you think about it.
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John R. Broomfield
Senior Member
Username: jbroomfield

Post Number: 189
Registered: 2-2001

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Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 11:52 pm:   

I understand these pages are largely meant to help people make better use of ISO standards.

I have been flamed for posting my site on these pages so I need permission from the administrator to do what you say I can do.

Besides this site now has pages dedicated to mentioning our company websites.
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John R. Broomfield
Senior Member
Username: jbroomfield

Post Number: 190
Registered: 2-2001

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Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 11:55 pm:   

I understand these pages are largely meant to help people make better use of ISO standards.

I have been flamed for posting my site on these pages so I need permission from the administrator to do what you say I can do.

Besides this site now has pages dedicated to mentioning our company websites (see http://www.iso1stop.com/discus/messages/662/688.html?1082691597).

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